OK, I figured since I've had the camera for almost a week now I'd do a little mini review and basically start a fresh thread to get out of the ~10 page news thread....

the beast:


Body:
The first few things that jump out at you are the size and the rear screen. Most people know I shot with a 5D for 18 months, but that time I came from a 1 series. To fund the 5Dii this time I had to sell my old 5D when I pre-ordered. That meant I used my 40D for the ~2 months and I'm now "upgrading" in a sense to the 5D instead of coming down from a 1 series in terms of size. This time around the 5D feels very large in my hands. I have big hands, and I like the size of it, but it's noticeably larger than the 40D (which is bigger than the 30D). It's a nice solid feeling body, it has a nice indentation for you middle finger on the front (maybe not as deep as the 5D?), and it has a new texture to the non rubber coated parts that's nice.



The TOP LCD is bigger this time around and the font sizes there have gone up. They've moved the buttons/functions around up top as well which works well. At first I wondered why the back light button was where it was but you naturally reach over that and ISO is the first button you actually want to press. The layout is now in line with the 40D/50D setup up top which is nice.



The rear of the camera is almost unchanged from the old 5D except there's a speaker, new AF-On button, and the new screen. The button layout is mostly unchanged (same button layout, some functions have moved position). Canon FINALLY used the print button for something other than just printing (it' brings up liveview which is great honestly). Then there's the screen... It's AWESOME. I don't use screens a ton to chimp more than checking basic composition and histograms, so I don't NEED a great screen... But it sure is nice to look at. The menus looks fantastic. Going back to the 40D last night the visible pixels are actually distracting now. It's nice, but the purple look/tint does look weird at first. The lack of reflection is nice as well. It's also very nice that canon kept the side button layout even with the screen size increase. It's a much more natural layout in terms of using 2 hands on the buttons.

Menus:
The menus are basically the same as the 40D menus only with the better screen and some prettying up. There are transition effects that are "neat". Not needed, but they do look nice. My menu is finally on a 5D which is awesome. It's not perfect though as they only let you add one screen worth of options. Why shouldn't I be allowed to add enough items it would make it scroll if I want to canon? Plus, the my menu setup option is on that menu so it's taking one of the spots (it could easily be put on the CF menu or the settings menu that controls the custom shooting sections as both have space). And it's funny because I only want one more function on there, so the options for my menu rob me of that one space.... Yes it's much better than the old system, but it's not perfect IMHO. The rest of the menus are very nice. If you're not used to them they do take a day to adjust to (coming from a 5D or 30D or older). But once you're used to them it is much easier to find settings fast. Especially considering you can put most of what you need on the "my menu". You can also make my menu be the first menu that pops up regardless of where you left which is nice.

The other "menu" worth mentioning is the "quick control screen". This menu is on the back screen. You can bring it up a number of ways (default is pressing the joystick in, another option is the set button, and you can get to it using the info button). But what this does is it basically lets you setup all your settings similar to how a P&S works using the joystick, the rear dial and the rear screen. The only setting you can't change here is the camera mode mode and AF/MF because they both use physical switches. Everything else can be set here which is actually kinda nice, but very weird at first. I hope this doesn't mean they'll be ditching the top screen anytime soon though. But in practice it will eventually be fast to make massive mode changes this way (say going from studio to "action" in a hurry) once you've learned it.

AF:
Well this is the purple elephant sitting in the corner of the room isn't it? The AF uses the same system it did in the 5D on paper. That has caused a lot of commotion since it's launch. But it does have the new processors in the camera which drive the AF. The system is based on the center point (of 9 in a diamond) being the only user selectable cross type sensor. The other 8 are only sensitive to horizontal contrast bands. This means in low light the outer points can be troublesome. They can even be troublesome in good light at times, but that's much less of an issue. For me, in practice, the 5D's center point has always been the best AF system I've ever used in terms of accuracy. Better than a 1D or 1Dii even. Slower obviously, but less OOF shots taken and tossed. The old 5D's outer points were worthless in low light. The new 5Dii's outer points are improved. But they're still not cross types so they don't always work. It's up to you as to weather or not they'll work, if you'll need to use the center point, or if you should buy a different camera. But for what I shoot and how I shoot I like the system, I wish it's outer points were cross, then it'd be ideal, but I can certainly work with this system and using the center point always gets me the results I want (but is a hassle).

The 5Dii isn't meant to be a sports camera. I understand a lot of us use one body for a lot of things, so it will be used as such, but it can be limiting for action. It's blackout is longer than a 40D. It's lag is a bit longer as well. And the cross type issue might come up with sports/AI servo usage. The center point tracks VERY WELL though. It will work, it will be accurate, but it's not as responsive as a 40D/50D.

Viewfinder:
Always worth mentioning on a FF camera. Yes it's B I G. Yes it's bright. Yes it's awesome. They claim the new one has the "yellow tint" removed. I don't remember that from my old 5D, but the new viewfinder is very clear. It's also up to 98% coverage (from 96%). Basically it's bigger, brighter and closer to the shot you get than the old 5D, and MUCH better than a cropped body (1 series bodies excluded, they're all 100% and awesome). You notice this right away and for some people this alone is worth the upgrade.

Processing/Shooting speed:
This body is capably of 3.9fps @ 21mp. That's no small feat. 3.9fps is relatively slow, and what's really a shame is canon won't open it up if you dumb down the resolution (or other options Nikon has figured out). But it's fast enough for what most people would want to shoot with a 21mp FF camera. Also, the buffer is 78 jpegs or 13 raws (I think this does change with smaller files, but it's not published). It's worth using UDMA cards with this camera though because in doing so your JPEG buffer becomes endless (until the card is full if it's a fast enough card). There isn't really any delay with a fast card in replay of review times.

Videos!:
This is the new wow feature no one really saw coming. It's cool. It's fun. It'll be useful for me since I have a kid, but some people have zero use for it. It is nice being able to use my existing canon lenses with a video camera for sure. I'm also the type that wouldn't drag a DSLR and camcorder along with me anywhere, so now I get one built in. But it IS a memory hog. ~10 second clips are over 100mb. I'm sure this isn't news for video people, but it will eat HD space and memory card space fast. If you want video in a DSLR, it's this or the D90 though, so it is slim pickings.
[YOUTUBE]EsespZdwJIY[/YOUTUBE]

The video feature is part of liveview. It's not perfectly setup because it's canon's first attempt. Personally I would have liked one way to activate live view and one way to get to videos and have them both be separated a bit more. Yes you NEED to be able to take a picture in video mode IMHO (since this is a camera) but depending on which mode you're in, your settings are limited (in video mode your camera is basically in green box mode, so if you want to shoot but need to pick settings you need to exit to the live view menu, pick the picture/video mode, and more importantly the picture display. You can record movies from there, but if you do and you use any EC, the first few seconds will have a transition from 0EC to whatever you have dialed in. So basically you need the video display to get good videos and the photo display to get good photos. Not too bad, but it would have been nice to have you be able to get to one or the other w/o messing with 2 settings and instead offer the 2 modes as separate functions. Live view in camera mode works as you'd expect, just make sure the AF mode isn't on face detect if you want to zoom in and MF.

It's also worth mentioning the AF in liveview. It SUCKS compared to the real AF. It's slow and misses a lot. This is tolerable if you're shooting pics, but for videos it's a PITA because while recording it's very hard to AF so you'll have OOF movies. You can also see/watch the camera hunt in these modes if you AF while recording. Basically you need to treat this like a movie camera not a camcorder and manually focus when possible. The face detect is really cool to watch. It puts a white box on the screen that locks onto a face. It really does and will follow the face around the entire frame. Too bad when you hit AF it's still slow.


IQ/ISOs?
Arguably the most important part IMHO. The 5Dii has a 21mp FF sensor. That's a LOT of information. It really wants good lenses in front of it to really shine. I don't have a 5D to test it against (that camera was considered "special" by a lot of people, myself included, and I feel it was due to it's AA filter). But from what I've seen so far, at least if you downsize to 12mp you will beat a 5D image in terms of details, sharpness and IQ. Obviously you don't buy a 21mp camera to downsample to 12, but at least you're no worse off... The 5Dii sensor/filter seems to be very good and I've seen moire in some videos. Not sure if that's due to video processing in camera or the AA filter, but it is promising. It's certainly sharp enough though. The shots I've taken with it at full resolution are certainly great looking so no complaints here.





ISO is the other big benefit of this camera. Let's just say if you need/want 6400, this camera offers it and it looks ridiculous (in a good way). I don't care to get into a pixel peeping contest with other cameras, lets just say that it's got 6400, it's very clean, and better in sRAW1 and sRAW2 of you don't need 21mp @ 6400... If you're looking at this and the D700 or other 6400 capable cameras in this price range, ISO performance alone shouldn't be the determining factor as they're both very good. I'd say 6400 on this camera is easily better than 1600 on the 40D and on par with 1600 from my old 5D (but I can't test them head to head).

6400:


Cropability (is that a word even?) is very good. I've been testing some FF 5Dii images -vs- 40D images and they look very similar side by side. By the numbers the 40D has a few more pixels in that same area, but they're very close. Basically you don't need a 40D in your bag for reach (but maybe for FPS). If you had a 50D it would add some reach though as it's got 50% more pixels than a 40D.

File sizes are also worth bringing up. Typically RAW files are similar in terms of MB size as they are in MP. So a 21mp RAW is around 21mb. But that only holds true at low ISOs. The file sizes ratchet up quickly when the ISOs go up. I've seen 29.9mb RAWs and 18.9mb sRAW1s. Even sRAW2 is near 10mb if you're shooting at 3200~6400. Memory is cheap, so plan to get some more ram, more HDs and some more cards if you want to play the high ISO and or high MP game. It's worth considering as part of the upgrade IMHO.

The battery has also been improved to be a new smart battery... It now tells you how many shots taken with it since it's last charge and it has a more accurate 4 bar battery gauge. It's nice that we get the info over the old 90% of the time at 100% life, then a quick 1 bar left for 10 minutes to dead routine. But it's odd at first because after a few hundred shots you're not at 100% anymore... They also added they gauge to the viewfinder as well. The new batteries are black now as is the charger and they're both slightly BIGGER. The charger now has a green solid LED for when it's charged and flashing orange while it's charging. Better system, but the spares are more expensive and larger (not a ton, but worth mentioning).

Value:
Is this camera worth the money? This really gets personal and comes down to what you need from your camera and what your budget it. It's improves a LOT of small things over the 5D, then makes 3 giant steps IMHO: ISO, MP, and video. Right now it's a $600 upgrade over a 5D if you were buying either and roughly ~$1,000 if you were selling your current 5D to upgrade. Buying one new, I'd say the 5Dii is worth it over the old 5D in terms of all those small features adding up. Live view, self cleaning sensor, the new menus, new screen, etc. Obviously the resolution is nice as well as is the ISO, but 12mp and usable 1600 (easily) is probably enough for most people. If you're on a budget the 5D is an awesome camera, but if you can afford either, the upgrades are certainly nice to haves, but not need to haves for most shooters.

For me it's been a worthwhile upgrade. I shoot enough high ISOs that it's been nice having 3200 and 6400 that are as usable as they are. I also sell prints occasionally and for that 21mp is very nice. But I WON'T be using the camera at it's full resolution for a lot of what I shoot as it's overkill. For me though, this upgrade was more about the sum of all the little things and the ISO improvement than the MP of video.

Other cameras you should consider? The D700 is nikon's immediate comparison. The original 5D is a much cheaper option for those on a budget who don't need bells and whistles. Also consider the 1Ds mark II as it's in the price range used and a hell of a value. The sony A900 is worth mentioning as well. All are great cameras (no comment on the sony) for the money and all are much different, so consider all of them, but your use should determine where you land.

CNs: It's a long review, read it.

Great write up. Usable ISO 6400 would be so nice.

good review Ben. are you going to add anything on the kit lens? or do a separate reveiw?

Originally Posted by PhatheadWRX

One edit under Value, the first one needs to be 5D, not 5Dii

thanks, I'm sure there's a TON more....

Originally Posted by danm

good review Ben. are you going to add anything on the kit lens? or do a separate reveiw?

yeah, separate. I have to use it first though.

also, feel free to add your $.02 Dan, as your perspective will be interesting coming up from a rebel.

Coming from an Xti, i can only think of one thing that isn't improved or a better feature. That is the power switch. I believe it is consistent across all the bodies above the Rebel line. The XTi has the switch as part of the mode selection dial. Even though it seemed a bit flimsy i liked the location and action of switching it. The 5Dii switch is much more robust but not as convient for me. i am sure i will quickly get used to this.

I find that i like the top lcd screen and the joystick is slick.

I love the back screen reviewing pics is awesome, not only cause the pics come out better but because you can actually tell if they are focused. This screen is as much a jump over the XTi's as the XTi's screen is over the crappy P&S i had before it. I like being able to quickly and easily select setting on the screen with the joystick and adjust them without having to memorize a different button for each one. the buttons around the top lcd work great for this too depending on which is easier to look at.

As for the pictures, i can see a clear line of demarcation between the Xti shots and the 5Dii shots. If i couldn't i'd be pissed.

The high iso is amazing to me, considering iso 800 was questionable at times on the Xti. I believe(without doind a side by side) that iso 6400 on 5Dii is as good or better than iso 800 on the Xti. I'll try to do a comparo. it will not be scientific quality.

I have only shot on one occassion that wasnt high iso so far, and it took great pictures there too.

The video is cool, but i find focusing to be very frustrating. Once it is focused it is amazing, but the time it takes to hunt is really annoying. static focal distance work is where it shines.

i'll add more thoughts as they come. and try to do the 800 to 6400 iso comparo

^ nice!

and yeah, the power switch is different body to body but similar on all x0Ds and the 5D... But this one is more recessed and a bit.... snappier compared to the 5D? It's also not the same as the 40D, but it's closer to the 40Ds than the 5Ds.

ok the UN-scientific comparo of iso 800 XTi and iso 6400 5Dii.

XTi: iso 800, 1/40, F4, AWB, faithful style

Full res here

5Dii:iso 6400, 1/200, F4, AWB, faithful style

close to Full res here - file was large enough i am having problem uploading it to the NSOP gallery(19mb)

no NR outside of camera. shot in full size RAW for each camera and converted jpeg. no color adjustment or anything else, just NSOP border action on each. The full res versions are only converted to jpeg, no adjustments at all.

yeah, I'd actually give the nod to the XTi at 800, but 1600 will be a different story for sure....

its still pretty farking close for such a large jump in iso. i should have taken the time to properly expose these too. oh well it was quick and dirty.

yes, it is very close considering.

6400 is just ridiculous when you stop and think about it. Imagine in 2~3 years where we'll be....

Ben, do you think this camera could replace your need for fast primes?

Theoretically if the noise is that good: f/2.0, ISO1600 = f/4.0, ISO6400. That opens up a whole world of great zooms. You'd just lose bokeh.

I'm guessing he'll say no, because sometimes in that marginal light, f/2.0 @1600 doesn't give you shutter speeds fast enough to really stop motion blur. If you want that, you need f/2 @ 3200 or 6400. So, not only do you lose bokeh with an f/4 lens, you lose the flexibility of stopping motion without flash in low light.

I know he'll say no, because Ben loves his fast primes. Rightly so becayse you can never have glass that's TOO fast.

But he should be able to use a 5Dii + kit zoom @ f/4 + ISO 6400 in the same situtions where the 40D + prime @ f/2 + ISO 1600 would work. Not only would the kit open the possibility of zooming over a huge range (primes: 24, 35, 50, 85, 100), but if motion blur was not an issue, the added IS would only be a further help.

I'm also wondering how well his 70-200 f/4 IS would work inside @ ISO6400.

I'm just thinking the 5Dii really opens up a whole new world of usable lenses with good ISO6400. f/4 isn't necessarily "slow glass" anymore when mounted to it.

Of course there's always the sharpness benefits of primes.

could it replace the need? in theory, yes, and the 100-400 was bought on that premise (since it's only 5.6 -vs- 4). But IRL a fast prime gives you better bokeh when you want, and either higher shutter speeds or less noise ALWAYS.

But I did get the kit to test this theory because I have 17~200 covered @ f4 right now and most of that range has IS. The issue I have is the 24-105 vignettes a TON wide open, especially at wide angles. 24mm is my preferred FL and when you're using that lens inside at high ISOs like that you really suffer with black corners. Basically the 24-105, wide open, at high ISOs does work like my 24L if you go 2 stops higher on the ISO. So 1600 1/60th becomes 6400 1/60th. But instead I've been shooting 3200 and enjoyed the higher shutter speeds so I'm getting less blurred shots (due to Elias moving). I will be testing the 17-40 next as an inside low light lens since it vignettes less.

Also, it's worth mentioning the in camera vignette correction works VERY WELL, but you either need to shoot JPEGs or develop your RAWs in DPP... I can't stand DPP and JPEGs are problematic inside in low light for WB (the in camera NR actually works well enough on JPEGs it's usable). WB in my house is especially bad because we have a mix of CFLs and incandescents and the CFLs are all what ever has been cheapest as we buy them, so they're all different brands, colors, and ages.

the other issue with replacing glass with iso is autofocusing in low light.

yep, and inversely, when using apertures from 2.0 and wider on FF, you get really thin DOF. This can be a good thing, but it also makes focusing much harder and more critical.

Oh, and I was playing around with a walk around for aperture control in video mode. Just use old school lenses with a aperture control on the lens itself. That was you basically trick the camera into thinking whatever you've set the aperture to is that lenses max aperture. It works, but when I was playing with it last night it's only effective to a point because once you stop down more than ~5.6, the image gets darker. But you can keep stopping down to it's max (f/16 for the lens I was using).

Awesome review, Ben. I read the whole thing and frankly, it's about the first thing I've read/seen about the 5dmkII. Good stuff, looks like it'll be good for me to pick one up in a couple years.

yeah, totally on the MF thing. Plus the bigger viewfinder really helps there as well. My issue comes with if I'm not perfectly still between getting something focused and when I take the picture it'll change what's in focus a lot. Like if I lean in or out a tiny bit, BAM, nose in focus, eyes out. Or even if the subject moves that little bit.

That's another reason I like the 24 though. f/2 is nice and fast, gives good separation due to blurring the background, but it's DOF is enough you have some room for errors. Plus I just love that FL.

so, am i weird for wanting nose though ears in focus for a portrait? i find that i only use thin DOF with still life, flora, etc.

not at all.

I shot a 50D last night and it felt weird, coming from shooting Pentax everything felt out of place.
The LCD on that camera is ridiculous, I thought the k20D was phenomenal, but the 50d's is unreal. I am sure the 5DMKII uses the same one. I was impressed to say the least.

The Change you need?

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photog...iew/index.html

Another early review.

nice review. he did great iso tests too.

Originally Posted by Markitos

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photog...iew/index.html

Another early review.

Heh, I am maybe a mile from that Ferris wheel/beach.

Originally Posted by Markitos

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photog...iew/index.html

Another early review.

Nice review, he did a great job on the video.

Originally Posted by Jayso

Heh, I am maybe a mile from that Ferris wheel/beach.

I wanted to shoot down there at night when I visited but never made it.

Originally Posted by thomps6s

I shot a 50D last night and it felt weird, coming from shooting Pentax everything felt out of place.
The LCD on that camera is ridiculous, I thought the k20D was phenomenal, but the 50d's is unreal. I am sure the 5DMKII uses the same one. I was impressed to say the least.

I agree, I got to tinker with a new 50D at the LPS, the LCD was absolutely outstanding.

Oh, I slapped my 17-40 on the 5Dii last night and shot around the house with it. Yes, for me it's a workable walk around lens. It's wider than 24mm when I want/need that, but it's also nice to have 40mm when 24 is a bit too wide. It's about the same weight as well so it's a nice balanced feel. F4 is fine around the house with 3200~6400 usable. My biggest complaint honestly is when you want less DOF, f4 can be limiting, but that's depends on what you're after. Sometimes it's a good thing sometimes it's not so much....

I even PPed the shots last night, but forgot to UL them.

stop it your making me want to order the 17-40 even more

does this help?


and yeah, maybe I should stick with 24mm in that room until we fix the ceiling.

damn you! how far away from Elias are you here? on the step to the kitchen? or on the b&w tile?

Originally Posted by jacobsen1

and yeah, maybe I should stick with 24mm in that room until we fix the ceiling.

I love wiiiiide angles.


I miss the old Ben

Originally Posted by danm

how far away from Elias are you here? on the step to the kitchen? or on the b&w tile?

I'd bet I'm just on the kitchen side of this gate:

Originally Posted by tardypizza

I love wiiiiide angles.


I miss the old Ben

don't worry, the siggy is back on my wishlist at B&H (to compliment the wides I have now).

Originally Posted by jacobsen1

don't worry, the siggy is back on my wishlist at B&H (to compliment the wides I have now).

12-24? 10-20?

Originally Posted by danm

12-24? 10-20?

12-24, the 10-20 wont work on the 5D.

yeah, 12-24 was my UWA zoom on my 1Dii. So when I switched to the 5D I kept it for a while and abused the 12mm end. I sold it for a 17-40 which I feel is a better lens if you must have just one, but I've found myself wanting the 12-24 at times.

It also happens to be the widest option for FF cameras that I know of. Nikon makes the second widest in the 14-24 (which is better optically). Canon is well behind with the 16-35 as it's not as wide and not as sharp as the nikon. The sigma is the widest but the least sharp.

12 on a full frame must be nuts. my toke is ~17.5 equiv.

Canon has the 14L as well.

yeah, what's that zoom to again?

and FYI 15mm FE is wider than a 12mm rectilinear.

Originally Posted by jacobsen1

yeah, what's that zoom to again?

14!

Originally Posted by subimatt

12-24, the 10-20 wont work on the 5D.

he does still have the 40D though

right, but 1) probably not for long and 2) I'd stick to FF glass considering.

nice roll over ISO tool in this review:
http://the-digital-picture.com/Revie...ra-Review.aspx

Great reviews Ben & Dan. Dan, I found your especially helpful as I'm in the same boat coming from an xti. I 100% agree with the xti's iso being iffy at best above 800, and your tests show the functionality of the high iso with the 5dii (compared to the xti's). The more I think about it, the more I think I'm going to go with the 5dii over the 5di. The new features add up and seem worth it to me the more I go back and forth between the two.

Jared

it's in stock at B&H right now!

Originally Posted by jacobsen1

it's in stock at B&H right now!

great! (I see myself poor very soon).