Going to Florida in a month and I'd like to capture some sunsets on the beach. I've been looking into ND filters but I don't even know where to start.

I also need to get some... My biggest issue that's keeping me from it is I can't find anything that "works" with the sigma 12~24mm at 12mm. The biggest Cokin should (z pro or x pro, whichever is bigger) but when I went to B&H the guy behind the counter said "it won't work"... "Have you tried it?" "No it won't work"... "How do you know if you haven't tried it?" "Because it won't work..." So yeah, I just left.

I have a Tiffen .6 for my 17-40 and now 10-22. I haven't really used it, but I have it. So I guess I can't really school you on it.

so is that a round threaded in filter then?
How does that work? You're forced to use whatever composition lines it up right?
Or you're forced to put the line where ever the composition is???

I really want square filters for the easy of lining them up... But again it comes down to holding them to the lens... I guess bluetack would work... or a rubberband. I should just bite the bullet and order on to play with.

What should be the first ND grad to get? .3 .6 or .9? I'm thinking soft edge as the first one.

Originally Posted by jacobsen1

I also need to get some... My biggest issue that's keeping me from it is I can't find anything that "works" with the sigma 12~24mm at 12mm. The biggest Cokin should (z pro or x pro, whichever is bigger) but when I went to B&H the guy behind the counter said "it won't work"... "Have you tried it?" "No it won't work"... "How do you know if you haven't tried it?" "Because it won't work..." So yeah, I just left.

I just found out Cokin make a P system holder for WA, I am ordering it tonight. I have had some luck just holding the P sized filters in front of the lens on my 17-40 but I am not doing real long exposures.

Scott

Are these something that you have to adjust based on the shot or do you just screw it on the lens and go?

I think you adjust for specific shots - I've never used one, but on my little trip (that I still need to post about!) the most "serious" photographer there was using one for a lot of his shots - he didn't have a frame for it, he'd just set everything up on his tripod and hand-hold the filter in front of the lens for his shots.

Originally Posted by jacobsen1

so is that a round threaded in filter then?
How does that work? You're forced to use whatever composition lines it up right?
Or you're forced to put the line where ever the composition is???

I really want square filters for the easy of lining them up... But again it comes down to holding them to the lens... I guess bluetack would work... or a rubberband. I should just bite the bullet and order on to play with.

What should be the first ND grad to get? .3 .6 or .9? I'm thinking soft edge as the first one.

Do what I did. Buy a cheap set on ebay (not real Cokin) then buy the good quality filters once you know what you will use.

Scott

What exactly did you get?

Originally Posted by porschewrx

Originally Posted by jacobsen1

I also need to get some... My biggest issue that's keeping me from it is I can't find anything that "works" with the sigma 12~24mm at 12mm. The biggest Cokin should (z pro or x pro, whichever is bigger) but when I went to B&H the guy behind the counter said "it won't work"... "Have you tried it?" "No it won't work"... "How do you know if you haven't tried it?" "Because it won't work..." So yeah, I just left.

The P system WILL NOT COVER 12mm on a FF sensor. The X pro and Z pro are questionable and there is NO HOLDER for the sigma 12~24mm lens because it doesn't have threads on the front... So I'm not sure where that leaves you, but for me the P system is not an option... This is why I wanted to try one at B&H, I just need to hold one in front of the lens at 12mm and see if it covers everything or if you can see the edges. I can figure out a holding solution easy enough, I just don't want to spend ~$50 on the wrong filter, even if I can return it.

I just found out Cokin make a P system holder for WA, I am ordering it tonight. I have had some luck just holding the P sized filters in front of the lens on my 17-40 but I am not doing real long exposures.

Scott

Seems as though there is some confusion in this thread. I think some are talking about Grad. ND filters, and some are talking about regular ND filters.

I've been looking into getting some Grad ND filters, but the holder assortment confuses me.

I have a standard screw on two-stop ND filter, and it's good for longer exposures in the daylight.

Ok for sunsets and crap like that I'm going to need a gradual ND filter, right? The gradual would need to be placed depending on the setup?

If I wanted the whole thing to be stopped down I'd just need a reg filter...

Here's a good article:

http://www.earthboundlight.com/photo...duated-nd.html

IMO you don't usually need a filter holder that much, so I wouldn't worry about it a whole lot.

Originally Posted by jblaze5779

What exactly did you get?

I can't find the kit I bought, this is as close as I can find. http://cgi.ebay.com/Filter-Landscape...QQcmdZViewItem

The kit I bought had 2 ND filters a blue grad. a orange grad and tobacco grad. and I also bought a set of three ND grad filters not sure what the stops are though. They are cheep but I don't see much if any degradation of quality of the pictures.

Scott

Originally Posted by jacobsen1

So I'm not sure where that leaves you, but for me the P system is not an option...

I decided to wait on the WA p series holder and just try the one I have now. I received a 77mm adapter today and it will work just barely with my 17-40 if I start the first part of the threads on the adapter, then slide the holder on then rotating the adapter by using finger pressure on the inside to tighten it all the way down. I still have to see if there is any vignetting when I use it out side though test shots inside seem fine. Of course this is on a 20D so I don't have to worry about FF. I read the WA Cokin holder has two cutouts on the sides to allow you to do the same thing I had to do but making easier to tighten down the adapter by holding it on the outside.

Scott

Since this thread is suposed to be about ND filters, here is a shot using a No.96 N.D. .90 Kodak Wratten gelatin filter cut to fit in the filter holder on the back of the Canon 17-40L lens.


Ajusted levels, saturation, and selective color.

Scott

I have never put anything in the filter holder on the back of my 17-40.

I've tried on the back of my sigma 12~24mm, but I can only find NDs... no grad NDs, and taking the lens on/off repeatedly to position it would suck.

All advice regarding grad filters I've seen suggests it is better to just get the rectangular filter.

Okay, I didn't read the rest of the thread, so forgive me if any of this is redundant... I'm at work so have to make it a quick reply.

Based on the subject matter I shoot, I use Grad NDs on nearly every photo outing I take...

A Grad ND filter is my favorite tool in my bag and here's as much information as I can think of about it. I use rectangular filters that I buy from www.2filter.com, made by HiTech, there's some kind of deal on that website to the get the ring, holder, and a filter for <$100, if not much cheaper than that, I don't remember.

You buy an adapter ring for your specifc lens, a holder to fit the adapter ring and Grad filter size, then the filters themselves. I have 5 grad NDs; 1, 2, and 3-stop HARD line filters and 2 and 3-stop SOFT line filters. I mainly use the 2 and 3-stop HARD line ones.

I attach the filter to the lens, then I meter with the filter and open up about a stop... expose a shot, check the histogram, then adjust accordingly. This may or not be the best method but it produces consisent good results. Obviously, I open up a bit less with the one stop and maybe a bit more with the 3-stop, its a feel type of thing that you have to get used to. Its also easy to hold in front of the lens, and I (as well as many others) use this method from time to time... but I try to not do it since it gives less control.

A few examples of scenes using Grad NDs:

Filter: 3-stop HARD Line


Filter: 3-stop HARD Line


Filter: 2-stop SOFT Line


All three of those shots, I don't believe, would have been possible without the use of the Grad NDs. I don't personally believe any HDR/blending technique could produce such natural results, they might work, but not as well.

- Scott

Originally Posted by Stime187

All three of those shots, I don't believe, would have been possible without the use of the Grad NDs. I don't personally believe any HDR/blending technique could produce such natural results, they might work, but not as well.
- Scott

egg z. Possible other ways, but not nearly as smooth... Can you possibly draw on those where your lines were? I'm guessing they're right at the ridge lines??? How do you deal with the fact the filter's line is straight but the mountains aren't? It's good enough I suppose and better than w/o?

My other issue with them, is with the third image. It looks weird to my eye because the mountains in the reflection are brighter they are in the direct image... Not sure how to do it better, maybe less of a grad, but they the direct image portion is too dark and/or the lower ones are too bright...

Don't take me wrong, it's an amazing shot, it's just that the grad in that case, especially with a snow capped mountain being reflected, makes it look a bit weird to my eyes/brain. W/o a filter the shot wouldn't be usable though.

I just need to get a set or at least one and go out and play with it, a set of bracketed images, some with and some w/o filters and see how they come out...

Ben

The lines were basically...

#1: Along the ridgeline, rotated clockwise to fit the ridge.
#2: Along the horizon below the mountains in order to cover all the bright rays.
#3: Along the bottom of the sidelight coming in, just short of halfway down the image.

Originally Posted by jacobsen1

My other issue with them, is with the third image. It looks weird to my eye because the mountains in the reflection are brighter they are in the direct image... Not sure how to do it better, maybe less of a grad, but they the direct image portion is too dark and/or the lower ones are too bright...

Ben, you nailed me. You're exactly right, I think I actually shot that last one with a 3-stop SOFT when I only needed a 2-stop, its a mistake and I may try to burn in the foreground sometime to fix it as much as possible. Thats one of the most common mistakes with Grad NDs. I normally meter the foreground and the bright area to determine total difference before deciding which to use. But as light changes, the exposure difference can change and you can be left with a big mistake, which you pointed out.

One note though, in the third image, its also difficult because the water is actually a turquoise color (glacial melt), so it made the reflection colors a bit odd on its own and my trick the eye somewhat.

- Scott

Originally Posted by Stime187

The lines were basically...

#1: Along the ridgeline, rotated clockwise to fit the ridge.
#2: Along the horizon below the mountains in order to cover all the bright rays.
#3: Along the bottom of the sidelight coming in, just short of halfway down the image.

OK, so with a holder you rotate to match the angles, you're still working with a (shifted) straight line then ( so a tree or something that's all on it's own would be tough).

Originally Posted by Stime187

Ben, you nailed me. You're exactly right, I think I actually shot that last one with a 3-stop SOFT when I only needed a 2-stop, its a mistake and I may try to burn in the foreground sometime to fix it as much as possible. Thats one of the most common mistakes with Grad NDs. I normally meter the foreground and the bright area to determine total difference before deciding which to use. But as light changes, the exposure difference can change and you can be left with a big mistake, which you pointed out.

- Scott

OK, so had you gone with a lesser filter it would look right then? I really need to get a few of these bad boys so I know how they work.

What would you recomend as a first filter, and maybe first 3? (I'm only talking ND grads here) IE .3 .6 .9 hards softs? Which should be first? Lighter or darker? I'm guessing a soft would be easier to learn with as mistakes will be less pronounced. Eventually I want all 6 but I need to start somewhere.

Thanks,
Ben

Depends on the sharpness of the edge of the filter. I suppose you can begin to tell which is appropriate for each shot with some experience.

I'm gradually building up the filter collection, and I'm going with the 4x6" filters. I've never personally used the holders a lot, and neither does my friend, we both tend to hold them in our hands a lot but we're rogues like that.

Originally Posted by emorphien

I'm gradually building up the filter collection, and I'm going with the 4x6" filters. I've never personally used the holders a lot, and neither does my friend, we both tend to hold them in our hands a lot but we're rogues like that.

emo.. you wild

if you see two guys hopping through the woods with tripods slung over shoulders and camera bags smacking them in the back with headlights on their heads not long after the sun has set and it's turned dark, it's probably us

you need better hiking w/camera gear...

what? there's nothing wrong with what we do!

Got all my stuff today.

I got a:

holder p-series knock off
52mm adaptor
72mm adaptor
ND grad
ND

All for about 40 bucks

what ebay vendor?

a slew of different ones.

I just shopped around.

do i need to find anything special? my lenses are 52mm and 58mm. will just any ND filter i can find work?

if you go with the cokin p-series you buy a bracket that holds the square filter, then you get different rings based on your lens size.

This way you always use the same holder and only switch the rings based on whichever lens you're using.

I'll post some pics later on.

how do i know which series cokin holder i will need?

http://www.cokin.fr/ico15-A.html
P series is probably what you want depending on what lens you will be using it with.

Scott

I'd go with p-series

P's not big enough for me with the 12~24mm and a 5D... I need to figure out which will work so I can order some GNDs already....

Cokin makes a bigger, more expensive professional series.

yeah, Z pro and X pro...
I just need to cut them out in paper sizes and see which (or if either) covers the field of view of the 12mm....

so I made a template to check which filter size I need:


if you print it it will be the width of the filter... Hold it up to the front of the lens and see which lines you see and or don't see. You have to NOT see a box in order for it to be usable. If you do see the edge of the box, you'd see the edge of the filter if you were using it. Obviously use this with your widest FL lens.

Ben

Also keep in mind that while in the holder the filter is actually about a cm away from the lens itself

good to remember, thanks.
at this point (I haven't tested it with the 12mm on 5D yet) I'm just hoping the X-pro is close to working....

The z pro works on my 17-40, but that could be tricky on your 12mm at full frame! Keep us posted.

You can all so use the P series on the 17-40L with out vignetting on a 1.6 sensor I don't know about on a 1.3 or FF.

Scott

wow, it seemed the Z-Pro was big enough. Very quick test after sailing yesterday, but I couldn't make out the lines on the Z set even. X HAS to work, but I think I could "get away with" Zs even. Hmmmm.

emo, do you need the X-pro for the 17mm end on a 1.3 body??? Seems like that's overkill. I think I'm going to order some cheap ebay filters today in these sizes and see if they're big enough.

I meant to say Z pro, I hit the wrong key

they are next to each other!

can anyone (Blaze?) help me find z or x pro filters on ebay? I can find the As and Ps no problem, but I can't seem to find anything bigger.

right now I'm at work, so I'm having the guys in the shop make me a "x" and a "z" sized piece of plexi so I can try them out (with markers ) and be sure before I drop $$$ on them...

Originally Posted by emorphien

I meant to say Z pro, I hit the wrong key

they are next to each other!

no worries, but that's why I asked... If the 12mm end on a 5D was "close" to me last night but you needed the next size up I knew I'd messed something up.... Thanks.

It looks like you're right... I couldn't find any x or z's on ebay. I'd be willing to bet if there were any on it they would be knock offs though.

Knock offs are fine for me but I'd imagine you would want to make sure they were the real thing before dropping considerable money on them.